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The occult was being taught to us as children
#45: June 07, 2021, 09:28:09 PM
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Yet, Sophia implanted that very light in Seth, deceiving the Demiurge. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to perceive the delineation you're making when you're being laconic. Is it because we were talking about Jack being a "Jewish" archetype (connection to the Demiurge)? Still, do both aspects of "Light carrier"s not have an embedded facet of deception?

FWIW I think the issue of Satan was brought up to show how polarized expectations can ensnare our learning of these concepts. If they have us filling the wrong blanks we’ll never notice the right answers. Religions don’t arm us with the correct slots for the cosmic shapes, after (((rewrites))) they arm us with slots that will actively refuse those shapes.

Take the Demiurge for example, the Greeks assigned that title to a planet, simple as that, but the Gnostic hijack formed such a polarized story around that title, made it so evil, good luck fitting any shape through the Demiurge slot anymore. They created a ‘blank’ that doesn’t exist, there’s no ‘answer’ because any real demiurge is nothing like the Gnostic story describes.

That’s one immediate example of the above. The Demiurge isn’t Jewish, the rewrite convincing us he’s an evil deity opposed to Mankind is Jewish. Lucifer isn’t deceptive, the rewrite convincing us he has ill intent is deceptive... etc.

What is the known etymology of 'demiurge'?

Quote
demiurge (n.)
1670s, from Latinized form of Greek dēmiourgos, literally "public or skilled worker, worker for the people," from dēmos "common people" (see demotic) + ergos "work," from PIE root *werg- "to do."

A little recent as far as 'old etymologies' go but still, if this is the case then why is the 'public/skilled worker for the people' the villainized?

Gnosticism is mostly bunk. Though a few berries posess valuable fiber its mostly juice
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Re: The occult was being taught to us as children
#46: June 08, 2021, 12:25:07 AM
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Dude...

"I like apples"

"I get it the apple is symbolic of temptation and the temptations sang, so you're saying to sing"

Don't make leaps, take steps

Hold on, Nick.
I was asking about the implications of framing Jack as being Jewish and how I was supposed to interpret it: post #21. As you'll recall, you then asked why I thought Light was positive. I didn't necessarily think that. I was actually asking about your making it seem like it was a good or bad thing and if I was supposed to interpret it one way or another, hence my asking about you calling Jack Jewish.
I relented; I said fine, I was misunderstanding you and made it seem like a personification, where it can be viewed as a good or bad thing.
This is when you asked me to convey my understanding of primordial darkness and I reciprocated, agreeing to the concept of "false light".
Your next comment was condemning my framing Lucifer as a deceiver. I thought then it was best to just cut to the chase, leaving behind dichotomous frames and simply repeated the question, this time leaving out the word that seemed to trigger the next response - I called it Trickster and not deceiver this time.
Here is where you assumed I meant Satan, but I'm, again, fully aware "Satan" just means "adversary".
Next, I gave examples of why I thought a crucial component of Lucifer was deception, namely in this situation agreeing Jack's light was false (deception). Next you again asked me about the primordial darkness concept and I illustrated my understanding of the typical story used, specifying why we consider the light of the Demiurge to be false.

Nick, I don't think I ever made a leap after my initial misunderstanding, which you never really answered, you just assumed I meant to say "bad guy" when I just meant the Trickster archetype (to me it's devoid of polarized perspective). Frankly, I was asking you about your dichotomous frame of Jack and I explicitly asked if you were just being cynical or something. Maybe I should've asked if it was supposed to be a fleeting example, not one through which I should perceive any deeper connotation of Lucifer.

I'm not sure why you're being impatient with me. I've tried to just cut back to the original question multiple times now...
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Re: The occult was being taught to us as children
#47: June 08, 2021, 12:37:01 AM
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Apologies if I missed something but who exactly is Jack supposed to be?

No need to apologize, we are all here to learn. The name Jack is often used to name trickster and a thief. And at the end of this story, a carrier of light.

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This is what really confused me. A carrier of light at the end of his story? How does this mesh with Nick suggesting that Jack is supposed to be a "Jewish" thief? I'm having trouble reconciling carrier of light and jack also being conniving and malevolent.
Was I just not understanding Nick to be cynical?

Why do you think.of light as positive?

What was the default state of the universe

I think I'm taking a personification angle. I understand what you're suggesting: "Light" means knowledge here.
But, yeah, contrast is what really animates things. What is Light without Darkness?

More importantly, stripped of stigma,  what do the vast number of humans find more instinctively comforting, safe and tranquil


And to which are we conditioned to flock toward in times of uncertainty, such as right after death?

So, Jack carries Light (Lucifer), but a false Light. Does this not make him a deceiver?
I understand what you guys are pointing toward with the primordial darkness concept, "Let there be Light". Sure. But these two concepts seem to contradict to me, especially in light of the previous post I've made.
I'm not sure what I'm missing here.

So... why is the light false

I understand it wasn't the Divine Light of Sophia, but of Yaldaboath.
Yet, Sophia implanted that very light in Seth, deceiving the Demiurge. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to perceive the delineation you're making when you're being laconic. Is it because we were talking about Jack being a "Jewish" archetype (connection to the Demiurge)? Still, do both aspects of "Light carrier"s not have an embedded facet of deception?

There is no such thing as 'Divine Light' there is merely the wielder and their intent and in this case its 'Sophia' the entity that fell on some grand level and initiated some large part of humanity into a new age of ignorance (to keep things simple).

If Darkness is the true natural state of the universe then why is it that 'Light' is 'divine'? Why is the Darkness not divine instead? Why don't we hear about 'divine Darkness' instead?

Yes, I was just using the Gnostic tale to convey my understanding of the primordial darkness concept. No, I didn't fully explain my perspective.
It would be much easier if we quit making assumptions about what each other can comprehend and instead just answer questions plainly. I can't learn anything like this and it just feels frustrating when we have to keep pausing and stating we're on the same page or trying to teach through each other's assumed misconceptions.
I fully understand the fault in using dichotomous thought. Here I was illustrating my understanding of the stories and asking where Nick calling Jack Jewish fits in to this whole ordeal. Before, I was simply asking about Nick (to some extent also Grass) framing Jack one way or the other.
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Re: The occult was being taught to us as children
#48: June 08, 2021, 12:53:05 AM
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Yet, Sophia implanted that very light in Seth, deceiving the Demiurge. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to perceive the delineation you're making when you're being laconic. Is it because we were talking about Jack being a "Jewish" archetype (connection to the Demiurge)? Still, do both aspects of "Light carrier"s not have an embedded facet of deception?

FWIW I think the issue of Satan was brought up to show how polarized expectations can ensnare our learning of these concepts. If they have us filling the wrong blanks we’ll never notice the right answers. Religions don’t arm us with the correct slots for the cosmic shapes, after (((rewrites))) they arm us with slots that will actively refuse those shapes.

Take the Demiurge for example, the Greeks assigned that title to a planet, simple as that, but the Gnostic hijack formed such a polarized story around that title, made it so evil, good luck fitting any shape through the Demiurge slot anymore. They created a ‘blank’ that doesn’t exist, there’s no ‘answer’ because any real demiurge is nothing like the Gnostic story describes.

That’s one immediate example of the above. The Demiurge isn’t Jewish, the rewrite convincing us he’s an evil deity opposed to Mankind is Jewish. Lucifer isn’t deceptive, the rewrite convincing us he has ill intent is deceptive... etc.

As I stated in my second or third post in the thread, this whole time I was trying to reconcile stories like the serpent in the garden or Prometheus being devoid of dichotomy when Jack's story wasn't.
I fully understand all of this...

Okay, I get it. "Lucifer" doesn't have to have any theme of tricking involved.
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Re: The occult was being taught to us as children
#49: June 08, 2021, 12:01:38 PM
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Yet, Sophia implanted that very light in Seth, deceiving the Demiurge. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to perceive the delineation you're making when you're being laconic. Is it because we were talking about Jack being a "Jewish" archetype (connection to the Demiurge)? Still, do both aspects of "Light carrier"s not have an embedded facet of deception?

FWIW I think the issue of Satan was brought up to show how polarized expectations can ensnare our learning of these concepts. If they have us filling the wrong blanks we’ll never notice the right answers. Religions don’t arm us with the correct slots for the cosmic shapes, after (((rewrites))) they arm us with slots that will actively refuse those shapes.

Take the Demiurge for example, the Greeks assigned that title to a planet, simple as that, but the Gnostic hijack formed such a polarized story around that title, made it so evil, good luck fitting any shape through the Demiurge slot anymore. They created a ‘blank’ that doesn’t exist, there’s no ‘answer’ because any real demiurge is nothing like the Gnostic story describes.

That’s one immediate example of the above. The Demiurge isn’t Jewish, the rewrite convincing us he’s an evil deity opposed to Mankind is Jewish. Lucifer isn’t deceptive, the rewrite convincing us he has ill intent is deceptive... etc.

As I stated in my second or third post in the thread, this whole time I was trying to reconcile stories like the serpent in the garden or Prometheus being devoid of dichotomy when Jack's story wasn't.
I fully understand all of this...

Okay, I get it. "Lucifer" doesn't have to have any theme of tricking involved.


Elohim told Adam and Eve to only eat from the Tree of Life, and that if they eat from the Tree of Knowledge, they will die. They ate the forbidden fruit anyway. Did they die?


The serpent told Eve that if she eats from the Tree of Knowledge, she will not die, but have knowledge of good and evil (duality) and become like God.


One of these entities straight up lied to Adam and Eve to keep them docile, while the other offered them a choice. Lucifer offers you a choice. It is up to you to choose wisely. In that way, Lucifer preserves free will, the most precious gift/curse given to man.
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The occult was being taught to us as children
#50: June 08, 2021, 12:51:32 PM
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Yet, Sophia implanted that very light in Seth, deceiving the Demiurge. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to perceive the delineation you're making when you're being laconic. Is it because we were talking about Jack being a "Jewish" archetype (connection to the Demiurge)? Still, do both aspects of "Light carrier"s not have an embedded facet of deception?


FWIW I think the issue of Satan was brought up to show how polarized expectations can ensnare our learning of these concepts. If they have us filling the wrong blanks we’ll never notice the right answers. Religions don’t arm us with the correct slots for the cosmic shapes, after (((rewrites))) they arm us with slots that will actively refuse those shapes.

Take the Demiurge for example, the Greeks assigned that title to a planet, simple as that, but the Gnostic hijack formed such a polarized story around that title, made it so evil, good luck fitting any shape through the Demiurge slot anymore. They created a ‘blank’ that doesn’t exist, there’s no ‘answer’ because any real demiurge is nothing like the Gnostic story describes.

That’s one immediate example of the above. The Demiurge isn’t Jewish, the rewrite convincing us he’s an evil deity opposed to Mankind is Jewish. Lucifer isn’t deceptive, the rewrite convincing us he has ill intent is deceptive... etc.

As I stated in my second or third post in the thread, this whole time I was trying to reconcile stories like the serpent in the garden or Prometheus being devoid of dichotomy when Jack's story wasn't.
I fully understand all of this...

Okay, I get it. "Lucifer" doesn't have to have any theme of tricking involved.


Elohim told Adam and Eve to only eat from the Tree of Life, and that if they eat from the Tree of Knowledge, they will die. They ate the forbidden fruit anyway. Did they die?


The serpent told Eve that if she eats from the Tree of Knowledge, she will not die, but have knowledge of good and evil (duality) and become like God.


One of these entities straight up lied to Adam and Eve to keep them docile, while the other offered them a choice. Lucifer offers you a choice. It is up to you to choose wisely. In that way, Lucifer preserves free will, the most precious gift/curse given to man.

They did die. Death as in they were no longer the same.
The original topic was false light. As far as I am concerned any light that leads further away from creator is false.
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Re: The occult was being taught to us as children
#51: June 09, 2021, 10:57:46 AM
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Yet, Sophia implanted that very light in Seth, deceiving the Demiurge. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to perceive the delineation you're making when you're being laconic. Is it because we were talking about Jack being a "Jewish" archetype (connection to the Demiurge)? Still, do both aspects of "Light carrier"s not have an embedded facet of deception?


FWIW I think the issue of Satan was brought up to show how polarized expectations can ensnare our learning of these concepts. If they have us filling the wrong blanks we’ll never notice the right answers. Religions don’t arm us with the correct slots for the cosmic shapes, after (((rewrites))) they arm us with slots that will actively refuse those shapes.

Take the Demiurge for example, the Greeks assigned that title to a planet, simple as that, but the Gnostic hijack formed such a polarized story around that title, made it so evil, good luck fitting any shape through the Demiurge slot anymore. They created a ‘blank’ that doesn’t exist, there’s no ‘answer’ because any real demiurge is nothing like the Gnostic story describes.

That’s one immediate example of the above. The Demiurge isn’t Jewish, the rewrite convincing us he’s an evil deity opposed to Mankind is Jewish. Lucifer isn’t deceptive, the rewrite convincing us he has ill intent is deceptive... etc.

As I stated in my second or third post in the thread, this whole time I was trying to reconcile stories like the serpent in the garden or Prometheus being devoid of dichotomy when Jack's story wasn't.
I fully understand all of this...

Okay, I get it. "Lucifer" doesn't have to have any theme of tricking involved.


Elohim told Adam and Eve to only eat from the Tree of Life, and that if they eat from the Tree of Knowledge, they will die. They ate the forbidden fruit anyway. Did they die?


The serpent told Eve that if she eats from the Tree of Knowledge, she will not die, but have knowledge of good and evil (duality) and become like God.


One of these entities straight up lied to Adam and Eve to keep them docile, while the other offered them a choice. Lucifer offers you a choice. It is up to you to choose wisely. In that way, Lucifer preserves free will, the most precious gift/curse given to man.

They did die. Death as in they were no longer the same.
The original topic was false light. As far as I am concerned any light that leads further away from creator is false.

All roads lead to Rome.

O ye'll tak' the high road and I'll tak' the low road,
And I'll be in Scotland afore ye.

Even the unredeemed spirits will someday reconcile with God.
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Re: The occult was being taught to us as children
#52: June 09, 2021, 10:59:39 AM
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Yet, Sophia implanted that very light in Seth, deceiving the Demiurge. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to perceive the delineation you're making when you're being laconic. Is it because we were talking about Jack being a "Jewish" archetype (connection to the Demiurge)? Still, do both aspects of "Light carrier"s not have an embedded facet of deception?


FWIW I think the issue of Satan was brought up to show how polarized expectations can ensnare our learning of these concepts. If they have us filling the wrong blanks we’ll never notice the right answers. Religions don’t arm us with the correct slots for the cosmic shapes, after (((rewrites))) they arm us with slots that will actively refuse those shapes.

Take the Demiurge for example, the Greeks assigned that title to a planet, simple as that, but the Gnostic hijack formed such a polarized story around that title, made it so evil, good luck fitting any shape through the Demiurge slot anymore. They created a ‘blank’ that doesn’t exist, there’s no ‘answer’ because any real demiurge is nothing like the Gnostic story describes.

That’s one immediate example of the above. The Demiurge isn’t Jewish, the rewrite convincing us he’s an evil deity opposed to Mankind is Jewish. Lucifer isn’t deceptive, the rewrite convincing us he has ill intent is deceptive... etc.

As I stated in my second or third post in the thread, this whole time I was trying to reconcile stories like the serpent in the garden or Prometheus being devoid of dichotomy when Jack's story wasn't.
I fully understand all of this...

Okay, I get it. "Lucifer" doesn't have to have any theme of tricking involved.


Elohim told Adam and Eve to only eat from the Tree of Life, and that if they eat from the Tree of Knowledge, they will die. They ate the forbidden fruit anyway. Did they die?


The serpent told Eve that if she eats from the Tree of Knowledge, she will not die, but have knowledge of good and evil (duality) and become like God.


One of these entities straight up lied to Adam and Eve to keep them docile, while the other offered them a choice. Lucifer offers you a choice. It is up to you to choose wisely. In that way, Lucifer preserves free will, the most precious gift/curse given to man.

They did die. Death as in they were no longer the same.
The original topic was false light. As far as I am concerned any light that leads further away from creator is false.

No, they didn’t die. So they had to be punished instead.
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Re: The occult was being taught to us as children
#53: June 09, 2021, 11:44:12 AM
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Yet, Sophia implanted that very light in Seth, deceiving the Demiurge. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to perceive the delineation you're making when you're being laconic. Is it because we were talking about Jack being a "Jewish" archetype (connection to the Demiurge)? Still, do both aspects of "Light carrier"s not have an embedded facet of deception?


FWIW I think the issue of Satan was brought up to show how polarized expectations can ensnare our learning of these concepts. If they have us filling the wrong blanks we’ll never notice the right answers. Religions don’t arm us with the correct slots for the cosmic shapes, after (((rewrites))) they arm us with slots that will actively refuse those shapes.

Take the Demiurge for example, the Greeks assigned that title to a planet, simple as that, but the Gnostic hijack formed such a polarized story around that title, made it so evil, good luck fitting any shape through the Demiurge slot anymore. They created a ‘blank’ that doesn’t exist, there’s no ‘answer’ because any real demiurge is nothing like the Gnostic story describes.

That’s one immediate example of the above. The Demiurge isn’t Jewish, the rewrite convincing us he’s an evil deity opposed to Mankind is Jewish. Lucifer isn’t deceptive, the rewrite convincing us he has ill intent is deceptive... etc.

As I stated in my second or third post in the thread, this whole time I was trying to reconcile stories like the serpent in the garden or Prometheus being devoid of dichotomy when Jack's story wasn't.
I fully understand all of this...

Okay, I get it. "Lucifer" doesn't have to have any theme of tricking involved.


Elohim told Adam and Eve to only eat from the Tree of Life, and that if they eat from the Tree of Knowledge, they will die. They ate the forbidden fruit anyway. Did they die?


The serpent told Eve that if she eats from the Tree of Knowledge, she will not die, but have knowledge of good and evil (duality) and become like God.


One of these entities straight up lied to Adam and Eve to keep them docile, while the other offered them a choice. Lucifer offers you a choice. It is up to you to choose wisely. In that way, Lucifer preserves free will, the most precious gift/curse given to man.

They did die. Death as in they were no longer the same.
The original topic was false light. As far as I am concerned any light that leads further away from creator is false.

No, they didn’t die. So they had to be punished instead.

Their punishment was a 'death' of their old way of life and a transition into something new for them. Unfortunately for them their life of being pampered by their 'god' had come to an end and they had to create a new life from scratch, every part of it by themselves. Unfortunately for them there was a 'tree' of knowledge and they gained just enough knowledge to become slightly self aware but apparently not enough to create and take care of themselves in a new life away from their god.

Do we ever question if the knowledge from the 'fruit' of the 'tree of knowledge' was actually legitimate or was it fabricated by their god or another power? How could they gain just enough to get kicked out but not enough to help themselves if such a thing were to happen?
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« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 11:48:19 AM by The Watchers 2.0 »

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Re: The occult was being taught to us as children
#54: June 09, 2021, 11:50:09 AM
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Yet, Sophia implanted that very light in Seth, deceiving the Demiurge. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to perceive the delineation you're making when you're being laconic. Is it because we were talking about Jack being a "Jewish" archetype (connection to the Demiurge)? Still, do both aspects of "Light carrier"s not have an embedded facet of deception?


FWIW I think the issue of Satan was brought up to show how polarized expectations can ensnare our learning of these concepts. If they have us filling the wrong blanks we’ll never notice the right answers. Religions don’t arm us with the correct slots for the cosmic shapes, after (((rewrites))) they arm us with slots that will actively refuse those shapes.

Take the Demiurge for example, the Greeks assigned that title to a planet, simple as that, but the Gnostic hijack formed such a polarized story around that title, made it so evil, good luck fitting any shape through the Demiurge slot anymore. They created a ‘blank’ that doesn’t exist, there’s no ‘answer’ because any real demiurge is nothing like the Gnostic story describes.

That’s one immediate example of the above. The Demiurge isn’t Jewish, the rewrite convincing us he’s an evil deity opposed to Mankind is Jewish. Lucifer isn’t deceptive, the rewrite convincing us he has ill intent is deceptive... etc.

As I stated in my second or third post in the thread, this whole time I was trying to reconcile stories like the serpent in the garden or Prometheus being devoid of dichotomy when Jack's story wasn't.
I fully understand all of this...

Okay, I get it. "Lucifer" doesn't have to have any theme of tricking involved.


Elohim told Adam and Eve to only eat from the Tree of Life, and that if they eat from the Tree of Knowledge, they will die. They ate the forbidden fruit anyway. Did they die?


The serpent told Eve that if she eats from the Tree of Knowledge, she will not die, but have knowledge of good and evil (duality) and become like God.


One of these entities straight up lied to Adam and Eve to keep them docile, while the other offered them a choice. Lucifer offers you a choice. It is up to you to choose wisely. In that way, Lucifer preserves free will, the most precious gift/curse given to man.

They did die. Death as in they were no longer the same.
The original topic was false light. As far as I am concerned any light that leads further away from creator is false.

No, they didn’t die. So they had to be punished instead.

Their punishment was a 'death' of their old way of life and a transition into something new for them. Unfortunately for them their life of being pampered by their 'god' had come to an end and they had to create a new life from scratch, every part of it by themselves. Unfortunately for them there was a tree of knowledge and they gained just enough knowledge to become slightly self aware but apparently not enough to create and take care of themselves in a new life away from their god.

Do we ever question if the knowledge from the fruit of the tree of knowledge was actually legitimate or was it fabricated by their god or another power? How could they gain just enough to get kicked out but not enough to help themselves if such a thing were to happen?

They existed under the illusion of separation but before the illusion of duality. Did the serpent fail to tell them more, or did they fail to ask?
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The occult was being taught to us as children
#55: June 09, 2021, 12:31:47 PM
So they were tempted by themselves to eat a part of themselves to later only be kicked out of themselves by themselves.
If garden of Eden was the one thing then eating the apple did not give them knowledge but taken it away.
And without this knowledge of the one thing they placed themselves in a state which was not the garden of Eden.
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